Nadia Vassos, Director in the Retail and Supermarkets Branch of the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission and former Senior Competition Law Officer at the Competition Bureau, joins Counterfactual host Valeska Rebello of Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP to provide insights on gender inclusive competition policy.
In this episode of the Counterfactual Podcast, Valeska Rebello sits down with Nadia Vassos, Director in the Retail and Supermarkets Branch at the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and a co-author of the OECD's Gender Inclusive Competition Toolkit, to discuss what gender inclusive competition policy means and what it looks like in practice. They discuss how the toolkit came about through a partnership between the Canadian government and the OECD, walk through practical ways competition authorities can apply a gender lens to their work, and respond to the critique that gender considerations dilute enforcement.
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Welcome to Counterfactual, the podcast brought to you by the competition law and foreign investment review section of the Canadian Bar Association. Counterfactual takes a fresh look at issues relevant to business competition and related areas of regulation and explores the real and hypothetical worlds to gain practical insights and debate policy. Hope you enjoy the show.
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Valeska Rebello
Hello and welcome to Counterfactual, the official podcast of the Canadian Bar Association's Competition Law and Foreign Investment Review section. My name is Valeska Rebello.
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Valeska Rebello
I am an associate in the Competition and Foreign Investment group at Osler Hoskin & Harcourt. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Osler or the Canadian Bar Association.
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Valeska Rebello
In this episode, we will be exploring what gender inclusive competition policy means and what it looks like in practice. Today, I am joined by Nadia Vassos.
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Valeska Rebello
Nadia is a director in the retail and supermarkets branch at the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. Nadia previously served as a senior competition law officer at the Competition Bureau's International Affairs Directorate, where she was responsible for negotiating competition policy chapters of Canada's free trade agreements and helped champion research on competition and gender.
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Valeska Rebello
Nadia was one of the authors of the OECD's Gender Inclusive Competition Toolkit, designed to help competition authorities apply gender inclusive considerations to their work.
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Valeska Rebello
Nadia, thank you very much for joining me on Counterfactual today.
00:01:50
Nadia Vassos
Thanks, Valeska. Great to be here. So I will also do a disclaimer, so the views I'm sharing today are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of my current or former employers.
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Valeska Rebello
Great, thank you. And with all of our disclaimers out of the way, we can dive right into our discussion. So to set the stage for our listeners who might be unfamiliar with this topic, what does gender inclusive competition policy really mean?
00:02:17
Nadia Vassos
Yeah, great question. Gender inclusive competition policy to me means moving away from assuming that consumers and firms are neutral. So instead, we try to look at how different consumers behave. So that's different groups of consumers.
00:02:35
Nadia Vassos
And that helps us to try to better understand what specific market barriers might be affecting some people more than others. And by taking into account gender or other demographic factors, we may be able to reduce inequalities while at the same time, approving sorry, improving competition.
00:02:54
Valeska Rebello
Right, and historically, competition policy has been viewed as gender neutral. It's usually considered in terms of consumers and firms. And so why do you think gender considerations were largely absent from competition policy for so long?
00:03:10
Nadia Vassos
Yeah. Competition law was traditionally viewed as neutral because of the economic theories that we've relied on for analysis.
00:03:21
Nadia Vassos
So in economics we need to make assumptions. That's pretty normal. But that includes things like the rational or the objective consumer, and that model assumes everyone acts in the same way and it ignores structural issues that exist in society. I think there's pretty good reasons for doing that, it would be really complicated sometimes to try to take into account everyone's differences but
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Nadia Vassos
We do now know that those consumption patterns could differ between men and women, we know that some products cost more for women, we also know that labor markets including unpaid labor um have a strong gender element so there are some like really compelling reasons why we would want to think beyond those rational and objective consumers.
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Nadia Vassos
Broader issues that have impacted this over time is that there's been a real discomfort, I think, of putting anything that's considered a social issue with legal issues that were considered in competition law.
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Nadia Vassos
or even economic. But we're seeing a broader range of issues being discussed by competition authorities today so gender and demographic factors is one of those, but a lot of agencies are also looking at things like environmental issues where that wouldn't have been the case even. 10. 20 years ago.
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Nadia Vassos
So those are really important shifts that have taken place but I think one of the real fundamental issues that we've had in considering gender is that there was a lack of data.
00:05:03
Nadia Vassos
And we definitely need data to understand these issues. So looking at that from that angle, like data is just a key foundational piece for doing these sorts of analysis and considerations.
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Valeska Rebello
Absolutely, and you know noticing this shift in, kind of you know, getting more gender data and just having these considerations brought to the fore.
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Valeska Rebello
Could you walk us through how then the OECD's gender-inclusive Competition Toolkit came about. I know that the OECD began to explore kind of this gender lens to help deliver a more effective competition policy back in 2018. So I'm curious to know how you got involved and how this was put together.
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Nadia Vassos
Absolutely. So yeah, it would have been eight or nine years ago now. I was working on trade negotiations for the Canadian government, and in that context, there was a big push at that time to
00:06:11
Nadia Vassos
just consider gender in all sorts of work that was happening. So this is something that the Canadian government refers to as Gender Analysis Plus.
00:06:23
Nadia Vassos
And as part of my work, we were asked to explain the gendered impacts of like our trade negotiation chapters. So in my case, I was looking at the competition policy chapters of trade agreements, and trying to explain what the relationship was with gender.
00:06:38
Nadia Vassos
Our team at the time looked into this. And there was really nothing out there that went to that level of specificity, so we started asking the broader question of like what is the relationship between gender and competition?
00:06:56
Nadia Vassos
And again, there really wasn't much out there at the time, but we did find a blog by Chris Pike who was working at the OECD at that time and he asked pretty much the same question, like what's gender got to do with competition and I think that was released around March of 2018.
00:07:18
Nadia Vassos
So it was pretty convenient that we were both thinking about these issues at the same time.
00:07:26
Nadia Vassos
So we actually just reached out to Chris, and just had a conversation with the OECD Secretariat about like could we explore further work in this space?
00:07:37
Nadia Vassos
Because we were both asking those same questions. Thankfully there was support for doing that and that led to a discussion at the Global Forum in November of 2018.
00:07:52
Nadia Vassos
Where Chris Pike along with Estefania Santacruz-Vasut actually wrote a little paper for that session and that provided some really important initial insights into the relationship between gender and competition.
00:08:06
Nadia Vassos
At the same time, it also raised a lot of questions that needed to be answered. They put out some hypotheses about things but we really needed to actually back that up with evidence in order to apply it in our work.
00:08:22
Nadia Vassos
So from there our team was able to get a grant from the Canadian government, which essentially just provided funds to the OECD to support further the research in this space.
00:08:36
Nadia Vassos
And that's how the OECD's gender-inclusive competition policy project was launched. So really beneficial partnership there. And yeah that led to seven different research projects.
00:08:51
Nadia Vassos
Those papers are all available on the OECD's website. And they were selected to generate this new evidence and that was going to help inform the debate of how to develop a more gender inclusive competition policy.
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Nadia Vassos
And yeah those seven papers were around three broad topics so cartels inclusion, market definition, and then prioritization and public interest.
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Nadia Vassos
So yeah, that took a few years to actually have that research take place, have it be presented.
00:09:30
Nadia Vassos
But then we were able to take that research and work with the secretariat to draft the toolkit and that was something I did as an independent contractor so I wasn't part of the Canadian government at that stage.
00:09:43
Nadia Vassos
But the whole point of getting translating essentially that research into a practical tool so that we could have that evidence-based approach. It goes beyond the theory and provides some really concrete examples to help competition authorities consider gender in their work.
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Nadia Vassos
So, yeah. It was, it was actually quite a journey to get to the point where that project came about and we had something practical. But really...
00:10:19
Valeska Rebello
Yeah that's quite a process, like over five years or so before the toolkit was released.
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Nadia Vassos
The OECD was such an important partner and there was a lot of support in the Canadian government so it was great that that they could get to that stage.
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Valeska Rebello
Yeah, it sounds like a great partnership. And, once the toolkit was developed, now that it's been released, what kind of are some practical ways that competition authorities can use the toolkit maybe at a high level some of you think the most helpful findings are, the helpful tools within the toolkit.
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Nadia Vassos
The most simple thing that I would say to people is just to go and read it. Refer to the checklist the key insights there's some great infographics that summarize things on like one page.
00:11:03
Nadia Vassos
We learned a lot from the research. The toolkit actually includes a checklist of 10 things competition authorities can do to apply a gender lens to their work.
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Nadia Vassos
I won't go through all of them because they're there and easy to reference for people, but a couple of key ones from my perspective, and I alluded to this earlier but the number one thing to do is to gather data. This is just so critical
00:11:29
Nadia Vassos
To understand when and how diverse groups of people are harmed disproportionately by anti-competitive behaviors and gender is one factor but if you have data for other factors like people with disabilities, just minorities, any kind of group that you can back up with data, you might be able to see different impacts there.
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Nadia Vassos
And yeah, that's the foundational piece you need in in order to do any of the other sort of steps that are in the checklist.
00:12:02
Nadia Vassos
Competition authorities can apply a gender lens to market definition. And this is one where you can see there are certain markets that are gendered, deodorants, razors, those tend to be very segmented and that can impact the analysis that you're actually doing as competition authorities or lawyers working in this space.
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Nadia Vassos
And yeah, the competitive effects the analysis can change what the outcome is if you actually break up different groups of consumers.
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Nadia Vassos
If you've gotten to that stage and you do see that there are gendered effects then things like remedies can be tailored to take that into account. And chances are if there are effects that we need to worry about
00:12:48
Nadia Vassos
that the remedies will work better if you tailor them to take that gendered lens. And this is important in other spaces as well. So things like compliance and advocacy work.
00:13:03
Nadia Vassos
If you have data to back up the approaches that you're taking, those can be tailored as well. And competition authorities can think about this.
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Nadia Vassos
not only in the sort of market analysis and the steps they take in their reviews or cases, but also at the institutional level. So thinking about the diversity of your teams.
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Nadia Vassos
The kinds of training that you do, getting different perspectives. We've seen that in different spaces about how diversity can be really beneficial but this matters in the context of investigations as well.
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Nadia Vassos
So you might have one colleague that comes, is of one gender comes from a different background and you put them with someone who is a different gender and comes from a different background. They are going to see problems differently. They're going to interpret harm differently.
00:14:03
Nadia Vassos
And yeah that that can be really helpful to have that diversity of perspectives and you're less likely to miss something.
00:14:13
Nadia Vassos
when you have a diverse team thinking about issues. And yeah, the other one that I'll mention is just stakeholder consultations.
00:14:23
Nadia Vassos
So if you're getting to the point where you're reaching out to the public. Think about different stakeholder groups but think about who are in those groups. Is it a diverse group that represents the general population or are you missing something?
00:14:43
Nadia Vassos
And sometimes you have to think about those targeted consultations to make sure that you're getting a representative like view from those consultations.
00:14:51
Nadia Vassos
But really, these are things that you can think about. In most steps of the work that we do as competition authorities or lawyers working in competition matters, it's something that we can just turn on and think about as we're going and it may not always be relevant but looking at that data again, is the first and key step to inform what other steps might be useful.
00:15:18
Valeska Rebello
Absolutely so now that you've been working in this space for several years now between the research and developing the toolkit itself, what are some of the lessons you've learned since the toolkit's publication? Now you know from working at the Bureau to now at the ACCC.
00:15:37
Valeska Rebello
How have you seen these considerations put into practice? Or where are maybe areas for development?
00:15:43
Nadia Vassos
Yeah. I'll start with some insights from the research itself, But then I'll provide some more like personal experience lessons that I've learned.
00:15:55
Nadia Vassos
So I guess the most important thing from the research side is that gender is worth considering, there are impacts, and it's not always obvious.
00:16:09
Nadia Vassos
So you might look at one market and say, ah yeah, gender surely has no impact there. But looking at the actual behavior of consumers and digging down into the data, you may find something so there's some really good examples in the toolkit which I'll leave it to others to read.
00:16:29
Nadia Vassos
You can't look at something on its face and understand what's going on. Getting the data, analyzing it, that's the key thing that if anyone's going to take away from this conversation, look at data.
00:16:49
Nadia Vassos
But yeah doing this kind of analysis isn't about creating more work, it's about having better information and making more informed decisions.
00:16:59
Nadia Vassos
And that just makes us more effective as competition authorities when considering these issues. And there are some things that do help narrow when it might be relevant. So like gendered analysis is more relevant in markets where products are offered directly to consumers.
00:17:19
Nadia Vassos
So thinking those that like you go into a shop and you buy something or you're buying something online and it's going directly to a consumer. That it seems to matter more there than in that business to business model.
00:17:35
Nadia Vassos
Yeah that's where you do, again, have to look at the data. That disaggregated data is critical to be able to look at how one group might vary compared to another.
00:17:45
Nadia Vassos
Things like remedies. This is what Chris and Estafania called the double dividend but remedies that factor in gender may not only improve competition, but they can also help reduce inequalities in markets.
00:18:08
Nadia Vassos
And that to me is such a win. Like if we can do like the basic job that we're meant to do while also improving things in society, why wouldn't we do that?
00:18:21
Nadia Vassos
And yeah, one of the most surprising I guess insights from the research was that cartels are more likely to form in homogenous groups.
00:18:34
Nadia Vassos
Now to date there's been a bit of a glass ceiling and a lot of the sort of funny comments that you get when talking to people about this is like well why aren't there more like female cartels.
00:18:47
Nadia Vassos
And I think it's probably more about opportunity than that they don't, aren't inclined to do it, I don't think women are like inherently not going to form cartels.
00:19:00
Nadia Vassos
But the research showed that it's when people are in a homogenous group, they have more things in common. They tend to trust each other quickly, and that's where there is a higher risk of cartels forming which is really interesting and yeah If we could flip a switch and put like a bunch of women in higher level positions where they're making decisions, and yeah, see if the same sort of conduct occurs.
00:19:30
Nadia Vassos
But yeah throughout the past years, this has come up a lot, and many people have said in their experience investigating cartels, they've had very few female cartelists and the vast majority have been men.
00:19:46
Nadia Vassos
But yeah, maybe that will shift over time.
00:19:49
Valeska Rebello
Yeah as women, kind of become more kind of become more of a prevailing network in professional spaces, yeah potentially we'll get more female cartels.
00:20:02
Valeska Rebello
But that is that is a very interesting observation of one that I hadn't thought of before.
00:20:08
Nadia Vassos
And yeah, the sort of more personal lessons for me in this, and that this is coming from someone who's just worked in policy for a long time.
00:20:17
Nadia Vassos
It's really easy to accept that we don't know the answer to something when you're busy and you have to move on to other projects. And it was hard to get to this point where we have the toolkit but it was really rewarding to invest in that and spend the time and advocate for it so that we actually have some answers now and we have a better understanding of how this works.
00:20:40
Nadia Vassos
The other thing would just be that the benefit of working together, finding your partners. So many people came to make this toolkit a reality.
00:20:54
Nadia Vassos
It was just really good to be a part of that. And even though it's been, probably going nearly on a decade since we started thinking about these issues, it's still something that people have an interest in.
00:21:10
Nadia Vassos
And like regularly speak to different groups internationally.
00:21:16
Nadia Vassos
Share examples of how this can work in practice both from that policy to like new proposals that might impact of thinking about when you're coming up with the terms of reference for something.
00:21:31
Nadia Vassos
Having gathering data and analyzing it be part of that process too the actual competition analysis we might do in a more traditional investigative role, his can be part of any day process that you're doing.
00:21:48
Nadia Vassos
So I do encourage people to have an open mind about thinking about the who behind what they're doing.
00:21:57
Nadia Vassos
Because, yeah, it can change the outcomes and we can be more effective when we think about people's differences rather than relying on those rational and objective consumer kind of concepts.
00:22:09
Valeska Rebello
Shifting gears a bit to maybe some of the critiques of you know and having this gender lens and competition policy, how would you respond to maybe the critique that adding this gender dimension to competition policy could potentially dilute enforcement by introducing these considerations that maybe better addressed or just addressed through other regulatory instruments.
00:22:40
Nadia Vassos
Yeah, it's definitely something that comes up a lot. But to me, adding a gender dimension to competition policy means better reflecting reality. I don't think it actually does dilute enforcement, I think it makes for more effective enforcement. It is more work, but it doesn't take away from anything that we do.
00:23:03
Nadia Vassos
in the traditional kind of roles that we've played as authorities before. It's really about being more informed, making better decisions, and tailoring things to how things are in practice rather than that rational and objective consumer like logically we know those concepts are useful to try to solve an economic problem.
00:23:32
Nadia Vassos
But they don't actually reflect complex human beings that we actually have in our markets. So the more we understand differences in consumer behavior and account for them in our work
the more effective our measures will actually be. It's, to me, it's about reinforcing what we're doing in the enforcement space, not taking away from it.
00:23:53
Valeska Rebello
Great. And so looking ahead then, what do you see as the next steps in this area for competition authorities in particular?
00:24:04
Nadia Vassos
So an important thing is for competition authorities to continue to discuss and share what they learned from using these tools in practice. I do think further research is also needed to better understand like other demographic factors and their relationship with competition.
00:24:22
Nadia Vassos
So far the research has really focused on gender but I've I suspect there would be effects in other places as well. I'm also particularly concerned about changes we're seeing in digital markets and how that could disproportionately impact some consumers more than others.
00:24:42
Nadia Vassos
Things like personalized pricing or dynamic pricing can target consumers based on their vulnerability or susceptibility to market behaviors.
00:24:52
Nadia Vassos
And I think as people gain a better understanding of those vulnerabilities, there'll be things that will be taken advantage of rather than protected. Further understanding what the impact could be in that space will be really important to try to counteract or mitigate some of that harm that might come from that.
00:25:13
Valeska Rebello
for sure yeah hopefully we see some more research in this space too. Finally, to end things off, what would be your message to competition lawyers, particularly those in private practice, about why this topic specifically, gender inclusive competition law, should matter to them in their day-to-day work.
00:25:37
Nadia Vassos
Yeah great question. I think gender analysis should matter to competition lawyers because disaggregated data can uncover hidden consumer harms.
00:25:49
Nadia Vassos
It can show varying price sensitivities between different groups of people in the cartel space, like there might be different risks. And those are things that your traditional neutral economic models would often miss.
00:26:05
Nadia Vassos
So gendered analysis can help you as a lawyer better understand if some consumers see products as substitutes or complements it can help you understand that price sensitivity and switching behaviors and gendered analysis can help you design remedies that fix specific market behaviors that might impact some groups more than others, rather than that one size fits all assumptions that may not actually work.
00:26:35
Nadia Vassos
An added bonus for those who care, you might be able to improve competition while also reducing inequalities and to me. That's just a win-win.
00:26:48
Valeska Rebello
Yeah, an added perk for sure. Well, Nadia, thank you so much for joining me today. I think this has been a very insightful conversation that I'm sure will help our listeners better understand what gender inclusive competition policy means and what it can look like in practice. So thank you again, and thank you to our listeners for tuning in.
00:27:11
Nadia Vassos
Thanks so much.
00:27:14
Thank you for listening. Counterfactual is produced and distributed by the competition law and foreign investment review section at the Canadian Bar Association. The opinions expressed by the participants in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent those of their employer or other organizations. If you enjoyed this podcast or would like to join the Canadian Bar Association, please visit www.cba.org/sections/competition-law.